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Which letter is silent in the word DEBRIS?
Punctuation
Leaning, as I do, towards the view of grammar that says 'less is more', I find myself battling icky little bits of punctuation and the traditions that insist they be used.
I should rather none were used (see, I can do a subjunctive!) or, at least, as few as possible. Which leads us to the comma. The English-writing world is divided over giving pause. There are those who punctuate ferociously, and those of us who are less enamoured of too many characters in the text (this could be a Twitter thing - oh, by the way, best-ever Tweet: 'Tolstoy introduced to Twitter. Misunderstands the bit about 140 characters'). And then what? Well, the issue is whether, and where, you use a comma when punctuating a list, in particular, after the word 'and'.
If you say, for example, 'I gave the leftovers to the cat, Claude, and the dog', you might well assume that the cat was called Claude and only two animals received the remains. But it's possible that Claude was, in fact, another pet or even a person. This ambiguity can only be avoided by rephrasing the whole sentence or altering the word order in the list or omitting the last comma so that we get 'I gave the leftovers to the cat, Claude and the dog' from which we can conclude there were definitely three creatures sharing the scraps.
But - and now a warning to those who are easily offended - the following link is one of the best explanations ever of the case FOR what they call the Oxford comma*. What is it? The Oxford comma is the one which appeared before 'and' in that list of nouns. So, for example, using the Oxford comma one might write 'cats, dogs, and birds' whereas without the Oxford comma the same list would be 'cats, dogs and birds'.
Relatively straightforward, one might say. The comma appears to be redundant and I'm in favour of releasing redundant punctuation back into the wild where ever possible. But I could be wrong about the redundancy:
http://verydemotivational.memebase.com/2011/11/10/demotivational-posters-punctuation-4/
The solution? Moderation. Punctuate only when necessary and, where no amount of punctuation will help, find another way of wording your text. What punctuation mark gives you the most trouble?
* Yes, it's also called the Harvard comma, for those in North America. And the serial comma, for frequent offenders.
Miranda
Punctuation
Correction.....first example would tell me the cat was Claude. My apologies.
"The Oatmeal" also has some very intructive blogs/cartoons regarding grammar, although just a warning: Not for easily offended people.
Oddly enough, my reaction was to put it "to the cat Claude, and the dog." Less confusingl
i assume that claude was another person sharing the food with the cat and dog!
I lament the passing of the comma. In reading newspapers in particular, I have to reread sentences to get the meaning.
DOING A PROOFREADING COURSE AND ACCORDING TO AUST.STYLE MANUAL COMMAS ARE USED TO ELIMINATE AMBIGUITY.THEY ARE OFTEN NEEDED BETWEEN TWO ITEMS TO ENSURE CLARITY.ONE THING I HAVE FOUND IS THAT WHATS CLEAR TO ME IS NOT TO SOMEONE ELSE.
We were taught that commas are worth millions. A, B and C were left $3M. A judge ruled that A would receive $1.5M and B and C would share $1.5M. If the will had left the money to A, B, and C, they each would have received $1M. This was at the University of Michigan over 30 years ago so B and C may have counter-sued by now.
We need more accurate use of commas overseen by editors. Just for fun, we did this in primary school, punctuate the following two sentences, which may then be seen not as nonsense but as logical: That that is is and that that is not is not that that is is not that that is not.
Not wishing to stray from the point in question, I'd still like to comment on the apostrophe, which Stitchpuzz mentions in passing. Perhaps this much-misunderstood punctuation mark might rate a discussion of its own. Today, I received an e-mail from a local agency, wishing clients a happy New Year. Following are the closing lines (I've changed the names) "Warm regards to all, John & Mary Bloggs, Principal's". I wonder what exactly these two people are to the Principal! Personal Assistants? Best friends? E-mail composers?
i'm convinced that a generation of people don't know how to use apostrophes because their teachers didn't know either. Some years ago, in some schools, grammar was sacrificed to "creativity". If a story was interesting, spelling, grammar and punctuation were disregarded. Now we have teachers who don't know how to correctly use "apostrophe's" (sic)
Ah, the ever evolving English Language. I, personally, love punctuation. I love reading text that is well punctuated; it allows us to recognise the intent and rhythm of the text. I hate, with a passion, all the abbreviated text speak. OMG! Beauregarde hit it on the head when stating that, "grammar was sacrificed to 'creativity'". Focus has been lost on the importance of maintaining a standard, whether it be spelling, punctuation,or, as an aside, personal responsibility and morality; somehow we seem to be losing the truth in the telling; sacrificing our language. I understand that some people are so busy that they find typing that extra character such an ordeal. Actually, No, I don't. Slow down. The world is busy enough, and the only thing that might not be here tomorrow, if you push too hard, is you. Punctuate, read, breathe!
In the first line of this story "I should rather none were used.." - should this not be "none was used". I seem to remember from primary school the saying - Each, every, either, neither, anyone, no-one, none, everybody, nobody, somebody, anybody takes the verb in the singular.
Brilliant discussion!I really believe it is another example of where our society is headed.Books are becoming obsolete,we can download or use a kindle,tweeting is replacing conversation.We are losing the discipline needed to properly communicate with each other.
The importance of punctuation becomes quite clear, when using this little gem. What now, my love? or What, now my love? It all depends on the comma, don't you think?
I agree with CHILLIHEAD regarding the observation that tweeting may be replacing conversation. I see groups of people having meals together. They are not talking to each other. Instead, they are glued to their latest gadgets. Maybe they are texting each other?
NO1LLAMA YOU ARE SO RIGHT.PEOPLE CAN FLY BY PLANE THOUSANDS OF MILES DEFYING ALL PRINCIPALS GRAVITY BUT SCREAM IF THE PLANE IS HELD UP TWENTY MINUTES.EVERYONE SIT DOWN AND READ A GOOD BOOK.THEN TELL YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT IT.
are schools teaching parsing and analysis now? so that our children might know what punctuation is all about.?
To be completely clear you could write: "I gave the leftovers to the cat (Claude) and the dog" or "I gave the leftovers to the cat, to Claude and to the dog". Commas and brackets can be interchangeable in some circumstances but putting in the brackets makes it clear.
And as for the misuse of apostrophes - don't get me going on that! How could any rational person put an apostrophe in a simple plural??!! I think it started with the plural of acronyms. People wrote ATM'S, to show that the S wasn't part of the acronym, when all you have to write is ATMs.
DID CLAUDE HAVE TO EAT WITH CAT AND DOG BECAUSE HIS PUNCTUATION WASN'T UP TO SCRATCH?
COMMA PLACEMENT AS LIFESAVING 1.Pardon, impossible to be executed. 2.Pardon impossible, to be executed.
Erin05, the sentence "I should rather none be used" is in fact grammatically correct, even though we don't see it much these days. It is in subjunctive mood, which shows doubt, unreality or wish fulfilment. Other examples: "If I were you...", "if I were a rich man ..." etc. Sounds a bit pedantic, but hey!
Thanks for that, dj1. I have looked up all about subjunctive moods but still don't quite get it!! Have only just come across this site and will certainly keep checking it for useful information.
I am a newcomer to this site also Frin05 and I will be coming here regularly. I don't say that I am the world's (correct use of the apostrophe) greatest user of grammar, but I am certainly interested and keen to improve. Keep up the good an positive work everyone.
On the subject of apostrophes, does anyone else find it annoying that 'you're' is so often written as 'your'? E.g. "Your doing an awesome job". Sadly, it seems that 'you're' is becoming almost obsolete.
It's very lazy and probably derives from "ur" in sms which is used as an abbreviation for both. I agree it's annoying as all you have do is say to yourself, is this short for "you are"? I suspect that many teachers can't get these things right so what hope is there for the kids?
Talking of commas, a solicitor friend of mine explained that he never used any punctuation because it can so easily totally change the meaning of a documents meaning. he gave the following as an example: Not getting any better, come quickly. Not getting any, better come quickly
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I have to admit to finding some punctuation useful to clarify meaning and possible emotion. I find I do not enjoy the work of a well known Australian author as I tend to read it in a deadpan way due to the lack of punctuation. I have to admit that I could not discern that there were definitely 3 creatures in the second example. In truth I would probably assume Claude was definitely the cat's name as the second comma emphasised it to me. I didn't know that conventionally it was correct for any comma before the "and". For me the most silly piece of punctuation is the use or non use of the apostrophe for for its, it's. The context clarifies the meaning.